So we could assume that they have the same biological mother and father. Just for fun, I mean, I would probably enjoy listening to Ignatius. As far as original sin, if you look at catholic.com, the encyclopedia, it states that The Second Council of Orange, it states that, The death of the body, which is the punishment for sin. In other words, sin results in death of the body. Its on my YouTube channel BornAgainRN. He might redeem or rescue from bondage those who were under the law because we, which includes Mary, have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, Colossians 1:14. Advertisement "God gave us the greatest apologist of this. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. And in fact, in the Old Testament, only begotten and firstborn are used interchangeably. First, when it comes to adelphos and adelphi, I think Steve would agree with me that, in general, what that word means in scripture is that you have the same biological mother and father. . As I showed earlier, you have people like Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, who were firmly I would not call them Catholic. Did they believe that the doctrine of Marys perpetual virginity violated the authority of scripture? Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? They also didnt believe the Gospels or other New Testament documents were inspired, so they dont have a great track record when it comes telling us what is and isnt Scripture. Does it say that every single human being without exception has committed a sin? She goes on to say, My spirit rejoices in God, my savior for or because he has regarded the lowest state of his handmaiden. Mary then describes how God saves people from threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry. Because they have the same father but different mothers. She didnt become sin either according to Roman Catholicism. Steve's musical talents may have roots in his genes. But I think so far, this has shown that Steve has not been able to apply scripture in an unambiguous way to show the Marian Dogma was contradicted. The Story of Reality: Apologist Greg Koukl Discusses His New Book. He did exactly what Jesus did. But again, like it says, they were assumed bodily into heaven, but they had inherited original sin, just as Mary did. If so, if it was an eyewitness account, why hasnt the Catholic church dogmatically declared whether or not she died first? It is not mentioned in any book of the Bible, protocanonical or deuterocanonical, nor in any ancient nonbiblical witnesses such as Josephus or Philo. Steve Christie: According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. For example, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. Lets see, in Catholic Answers encyclopedia, it says that Andrew, the brother of Peter, is also called the son of Jonah. That children at a young age do not commit personal sins. How do we know that theyre brothers? The sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar, both from the loins of Abraham, were both blessed and became great peoples the Jews and the Arabs. The Greek word translated until does not exclude normal marital conduct after Jesus birth. No, thats fine. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. Well, it is an argument that actually I hear from a lot of contemporary Catholic apologists. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my Okay. I do talk about how much evidence that Greek word has for the immaculate conception, and I also note in my book its use in the Book of Sirach. Abraham believed God, and it was credited or imputed to him as righteousness so that he might be the father of all who believed that righteousness might be credited or imputed to them.. So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. Trent, in your recent podcast rebutting Ray Comfort, you said Jesus is the only person referred to as the son of Mary. 878 talking about this. No, because their issue with Rome was about the sole authority of scripture over the sole authority of the church. Christie kicked a successful onside kick, which he recovered himself (becoming the first placekicker ever to do so in an NFL playoff game), and also kicked the game-winning 32-yard field goal in overtime. Your generous donations are tax-deductible. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. And I think thats something that we do find. While the Greek word adelphos, translated brothers, can have numerous meetings in scripture, the specific Greek word adelphi, translated sisters, only has two. Thats fine. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. Landlord. Not Really Of Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Abandon the Faith? Mark chapter three, even though it doesnt explicitly state that these are Jesuss siblings, the Greek word literally means to be, like of that individual. And again, thats the view of John Chrysostom. Well, first of all, I want to thank you, Matt, for having me on, for hosting this debate and for all that, and for everyone affiliated with Pints with Aquinas. I mean, its not a good proof text to use. So the idea that its fitting that Mary be immaculately conceived, it pushes the dial a little, but its by no means a proof. And I would also address that Luke actually specifically states that it is a salutation. Well, again, this is the exception. Honestly, Id have to think about it. Just a shameless plug, like I said, Im an author of two books. William Albrecht has done a lot of great work on Mary. So there was something sinful about Jesus? Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament. Sorry, let me go back a little bit here with this. I didnt bring up [Greek 00:52:36]. So just a historical note for everybody watching. So again, weve gone through a lot of scripture here, but none of them stick and show that the Marian Dogmas are contradicted by the Bible in any way. A19: Interview with Apologetics.com: The Minimal Facts Argument. As Christians, we should not believe things that contradict the Word of God. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. And my focus was on the word, adelphi, which Trent really didnt focus on, on his opening statement. Heres my thought on that. When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? So offering sacrifices to Mary would be idolatry. First theres a dogma of Theotokos, Mary being the mother of God. I actually had the opposite situation and as I began to study scripture more in depth, I found to be deep into the Bible to cease to become Catholic. Oh, absolutely. No, of course not. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? After all Ive done for you, and you just sit there, you watch this, you dont click that thumbs up button. Steve Christie Co-founder at Provizio; Accident Prevention Technology Belfast Metropolitan Area Proviz.io, +2 more Queen's University Belfast Steve Christie Advisor - Halliburton Consulting. United States. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. The apostle Paul affirms this in 1 Corinthians 15:22, In Adam all die. Meaning all of mankind spiritually, including Mary, which Paul clarifies in verses 47 to 49. Okay. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. Trent models that approach each. How do we know this from the New Testament? All right. I mean, because honestly I believe that all three do contradict all of them. Here we go. And number two, when it comes to veneration, worship, honor, give someone the respect that theyre due. I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. Yeah. So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. After Marys days of purification were completed in Luke two, she made burnt and sin offerings, which according to Leviticus 12 was required of mothers to make atonement or to cover their sins, which Mary would not need to do if she were immaculately conceived. So whenever you want to begin, I will click the 10 minute button. But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. The YouTube show, which was created by Kyle Curtis and Steve McRae, often featured interesting guests, such as Hugh Ross, Inspiring Philosophy, Shannon Q, Sy Garte, Matt Dillahunty, Paulogia, Lawrence Krauss, and more. My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. I agree that it is used predominantly of Jesus, talking about salvation from sin, but I would say read the context. And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. The New Testament writers used it, but they did not use it universally for that reason. Make an Appointment Thank you very much, Steve. As I had mentioned about the Greek word, adelphi, let me remind everyone that this is about what scripture actually teaches and to remind that the Septuagint is a translation. At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? This is the number one downloaded Catholic app in the app store, and it is the best app Ive ever used ever. Marys special, unique status and her being mother of God is something throughout the fathers, definitely. Because I know every one of these points you could go back and forth on a lot, but lets try to keep it to just the main response and then a response to the response. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. It only states that Jesus was an exception to this because he had a divine nature, not a sinful nature, as well as a human nature. Im surprised that you would pick Aquinas since he did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. Yeah. Mark - Hello Christie, thank you so much for . Okay. Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? 0. But that doesnt mean that we cant show veneration and respect towards the things that God has made and those people who have cooperated with God in salvation history. 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